Christopher Wark (00:00.142)
By 10 months, I lost 150 pounds. And within one year, I was not only off of all my chronic disease medications and had my disease reversed, I'd also gotten off of all of my psych meds, all my antidepressants, my mood stabilizers, my sleeping medication, my anxiety medications, and my ADHD medications. I checked into treatment, the sickest, most disconnected, most hopeless about life that I'd ever been. And I left one year later, the healthiest.

most connected, most excited about life that I've ever been.

Christopher Wark (00:34.062)
Hey everybody, it's Chris. And today I am interviewing Adam Sud. Now this is a little bit of a different interview than my typical interviews because Adam is not a cancer survivor, but he has an incredible transformative health story, healing story. And I know a lot of folks in my audience are not cancer patients. They just are interested in prevention. And I think it's really important when you see and hear from someone who is

radically changed their life and turned their health around. So Adam is actually a behavioral wellness and nutrition expert. He's a speaker, he's the founder of Plant Based for Positive Change, which is a nonprofit. And he's been studying nutrition and disease reversal. He is really dove into this as have I, and especially the plant -based nutrition aspect of health. In 2012, he was

struggling with multiple addictions, serious chronic disease, mental health problems. He attempted suicide. And with the help of treatment and the plant -based diet, he began a journey that led to the reversal of all of his chronic disease conditions, got off all his medications and lost a ton of weight because he was class three obese, which we'll talk about what that is.

And he's currently 10 years sober. So massive life change. And I'm excited to interview Adam, because I mean, anytime someone accomplishes this, you know, just accomplishes a massive improvement in their health from almost, I mean, really, I think I can say rock bottom. That is a story worth telling because I know it's going to inspire, I know you've already inspired a lot of people, but you're going to inspire a bunch more because my audience may not know who you are. So good to see you. Good to see you.

Glad to glad we're hanging out, getting to know each other. And yeah, I'm excited to dig into the details of your story. And so I guess let's jump back to 2012. The low point. Yeah, you know, what I think is really important to put into context, because what I'm really passionate about exploring is that we have because my story deals a lot with what we call addiction.

Christopher Wark (02:58.03)
And there is a very pervasive, ever -present story about what addiction is. And then when you observe addiction in the real world, what we observe in that story that we're told are not the same thing. And I really like to bring context to the story of substance use disorder and help it make sense. We're very much told that addiction is pathology.

that it is a genetic condition or brain chemistry gone wrong. And that couldn't be further from the truth. And so my story really started to take place actually when I was in high school. So I grew up in Texas. I was born in Houston. We moved to Austin, Texas right before I started high school. And I was a kid who grew up in a hypercritical household.

where my dad was a marathon or basketball player, all these kinds of things, very fit, very active individual. And while I, you know, it's so interesting, I actually loved what my body did for me. I loved how well I could play sports. But one thing was I was always a little heavy and my dad would consistently criticize the fact that I was overweight. And that's...

It's interesting because at a certain point in time, I began to believe that there were these real conditions upon which you were or were not allowed to accept yourself, to enjoy yourself, to believe that you were an acceptable person to the world. And so by the time I reached high school, I was an awkward overweight freshman going into high school where I didn't know anybody.

And this was the mid to late nineties. And I experienced some very serious bullying, both physically, verbally, actually to the point to where about two to three fourths of the way through my freshman year of high school, the assistant principals would be waiting outside when I got dropped off to make sure that I got into the school without being harmed. And so what was taking place?

Christopher Wark (05:15.63)
was a very particular experience. One, I woke up into a body that I didn't believe I had the right to feel was a safe, secure, and hopeful place to be. I was in the presence of my parents who not at all times felt like a safe, secure, and hopeful place to be. Then I would go to school and experience physical and verbal bullying that made being in school feel like a very unsafe, unsecure, and hopeless place to be.

And I had been prescribed Ritalin when I was in middle school. And by the time I got to high school, that had changed to a medication called Adderall, which I know a lot of people are familiar with it. It's an amphetamine -based medication used for the treatment of symptoms of ADHD. And I was taking my medication in the middle of class. And as I walked out of the classroom, I would typically go to the right, because if I went to the left, I would walk past guys that I did not want to walk past. And as I walked out of the classroom,

get this arm goes around my neck, but it's different than what I had felt before. This wasn't that we're about to beat you up feeling. This was more of a, hey buddy, come over here. We want to talk to you. And surprisingly, it was some of the guys that were bullying me. And they said, hey man, just want you to know we had to put you through some hazing. You're a freshman, you're new to Austin, no one knows you. And I want you to know that's all over. We're done. We're done with that. And...

We really want to invite you to this party this weekend. Why don't you bring your Adderall when you come? And look, I was an awkward kid, but I wasn't a stupid one. And I knew exactly what was taking place. I knew I was being used and I felt immense relief. Because what had just happened was I got a sense that I may have figured out a way to feel a little bit more safe in a life that rarely felt safe. I...

became to understand that if I could be the guy that came to parties and supplied these guys with Adderall, I would no longer be beat up. And in fact, they might protect me. And when I went to this party, I had never actually used Adderall as a recreational drug, but I did that night for the first time. And I was hooked like that. And I really want to make this very clear. I was not hooked to the substance. I was hooked to the immense relief I felt as a result of taking it.

Christopher Wark (07:42.99)
I was an overweight kid. Adderall is amphetamine. That is what the stuff is. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing. I don't technically think it's a good thing, but just to be accurate about what it is. So then it should be noted that Adderall and crystal meth are not very different. They're very similar. They're very molecularly close. Yeah. And so obviously my metabolism goes through the roof. My hunger drive plummets. I also noticed that I was able to experience incredible confidence for the first time ever.

I was able to go up and talk to people, be engaging. I not only had a great time at the party, my presence allowed everyone else to have a better time because I supplied them with Averil. So very quickly, there were several very difficult things in my life that were being solved with ease and repeatability. That is incredibly attractive. That is not addictive. That is attractive. It should feel good. It should feel so...

good that actually it looks and feels exactly like self -care. And that's actually what's taking place. A super normal stimulus had been entered into my environment. The response to that stimulus seemed to solve problems. And so what happens is my motivational psychology had some very misguided self -care action. It was no longer able to say, oh, I understand why this is a short -term good thing, but whoa, there's implications down the road. The balance between,

My psychology and motivational system being able to make that balance appropriately had been completely dismantled by how intense the stimulus is. And so I bonded with it. I mean, I truly formed a meaningful and loving relationship with what this substance was able to do in terms of making my life feel like a great place to be. And it really worked for me. I lost weight. I made a ton of friends. I had a phenomenal time in high school. But as typical with the story of substance use,

for individuals who are using it to solve a problem that life is presenting them, at a certain point in time for a good number of those people, it's going to become a disorder. And we classify substance use disorder as when the presence of that substance displaces and disorders your ability to care for life in a healthful way. And that really started to take place in college to the point to where my need for the substance, my attraction to it was so great.

Christopher Wark (10:12.878)
that I ended up dropping out of college, moving back to Austin. And I kind of fell into the life of that criminal drug addict who was on the street buying and selling. I was stealing from people. I was treating my family like garbage. Um, did you, did you escalate to other drugs or were you just primarily? I used opiates, um, as a result, as a way of getting myself to get, come down off of a binge of stimulants. Um, in fact, by the time I was about,

When I was 25 years old, my life had been reduced to a hoarder -like apartment where I was completely severed from meaningful work. I was severed from a relationship with myself that I enjoyed. I was severed from meaningful people in my life, not because they didn't want me there, but because I had made it impossible for me to be able to do anything well. I was severed from a connection with the natural world, and I was severed from a future that made sense and felt safe.

And as a result of this, my entire day's mission was toxic substances. It was either fast food or drugs. How can I get any of this into my body so that life, so that I could pacify the passage of time and experience some sense of relief? On any given day, when I didn't have substances like Adderall or cocaine or opiates, I would eat around 5 ,000 calories of fast food a day. On the days that I did have

my preferred drug of choice, which was Adderall. The average prescription for Adderall is about 10 to 20 milligrams for every 24 hours. I was doing a minimum of 450 and upwards of a thousand milligrams a day for six straight days without sleep. Wow. By that point, my psychology would start to experience what we would call a drug induced psychosis, hallucinating, hearing things, getting very, very suspicious and kind of a...

paranoid. That's what I'm working during that time. Were you working? No, no, I was not working at all. I was, like I said, I was stealing from my parents and selling things. And every now and then I'd find a way to get some money from a friend or a family.

Christopher Wark (12:25.774)
By day six of that binge, that's when I would reach for the opiates because I was getting a point to where using more Adderall didn't even get me to zero. It just kept me awake feeling miserable. So I just needed to end it, go to sleep, wake up, fast food for two weeks, get more drugs, do the whole thing. It was just a constant cycle of self abuse. But again, it felt like self care. That's so important to understand from the perspective of an individual who's experiencing this.

It looks like they're trying to care for themselves. That's how they feel. And at about this time, my dad, who believe me, had every reason to give up on me. I'd given every single family member and friend every reason in the book to give up on me. And my dad came to me with an opportunity. So my dad is one of the founding investors of Whole Foods Market. And he, at the time, Whole Foods had partnered with a man named Rip Esselstyn.

who wrote a book called The Engine 2. It was an original book, then it's Plant Strong, producer of a film called The Game Changers. And Whole Foods have been putting on these seven -day retreats for team members to go for free and learn how to live a plant -exclusive, whole -food lifestyle in order to either prevent disease or reverse current diseases. My dad was just like, he was so desperate for me to feel some sense that I could change my life that he ...

had me go down in the global headquarters. I had to convince Rip to give me a spot because it's supposed to be for team members only. And so I did what I did really well. I lied my ass off. Oh Rip, I read some of your book. I think it's amazing. Yeah, please let me go. I really want to do this. I didn't want to go. I didn't know who he was. I didn't know what a plant -based diet was. I sure as shit didn't want to know what one was. My entire intention was just convince this guy to let me go.

And then I have a reason to tell my dad, hey listen, I'm really trying hard, I need some more support. Can you give me money to pay for rent? All I can do is focus on this diet. That was my entire intention.

Christopher Wark (14:30.254)
And I went to the seven day deal. I was high the whole time. I, by this point I was over 300 pounds. I had undiagnosed type two diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol. I was struggling with erectile dysfunction for reasons I didn't understand. And I, you know, I listened to everything that was being said there. I listened to his dad, Dr. Caldwell, I listened to people like Dr. Michael Clapper. I listened to people like...

Chef AJ and Doug Lyle, Jeff Novick. And they were all telling a very, very powerful story. And that powerful story was in opposition to the story I'd always been told, that disease is a result of aging and or poor genetics. That's what I'd always been told. And they were painting a very different picture. The picture that they were painting was in the majority of cases, an individual's health, their diseases that they're dealing with.

make complete sense that they are the appropriate response to an environment that does not meet the needs of a healthy human and that they are completely reasonable and there are absolutely ways that we can reorganize your environment in order to reverse or prevent those from occurring. And I was kind of inspired and I wish I could tell you that at the end of the seven days, I just went home and did it. But here's the thing.

As inspiring as I found these people to be. I just wasn't willing to let go of what was allowing me to so easily escape a life that just was such a painful place to be on the gamble that this plan of his would work out in a year. That was just too extraordinary of an effort for me at the time. And so I left and I went right back to what I was doing. And about a year later, my life hit the worst spot it had ever been. I was 350 pounds.

Um, I was, I'll put it this way. Every day that I woke up, I felt like the most painful, uncomfortable, and difficult day of my life. While at the same time, I lived in full confidence that tomorrow was certainly going to be worse. And you can live there for a little bit, but you can't last there very long. Eventually that tomorrow is just not something you feel you can tolerate. And I didn't have a plan. I didn't write a note.

Christopher Wark (16:55.566)
I was 30 years old and I was completely broken. I was two weeks away from being homeless. I had no job, no friends. My health felt like an absolute burden. My body felt like a burden. My mind felt like a burden. My spirit felt like a burden. And so I grabbed a handful of pills and I threw them down my throat, a combination of opiates and stimulants. And now I've been a substance abuser for...

10 years at this point. And so the experience of near overdose was not something that was new to me. However, this felt distinctly different. And I was sitting on my couch and I started to feel very strange. I tried to stand up off the couch and as soon as I did that, it felt like I got stabbed with a hot knife in the right side of my body and the entire right side of my body cramped. And I buckled over.

And all this black starts fading in from my periphery very, very fast. And I have a realization that this moment that I'm experiencing, completely alone in a filthy, hoarder -like apartment, completely separated from everything that gave me the experience that life was a meaningful thing to be a part of. That was the most painful thing I ever felt in my life. And I'm not talking about the physical description.

I'm talking about the feeling. It was the most horrifying and terrifying second. And the next thing I know, I'm on the floor, regaining consciousness in a puddle of vomit, in a pile of fast food garbage. And I can't tell you how much time passed. I really don't remember. But I know it took me a better part of 30 minutes before I was able to get up off the ground.

And in those 30 minutes, I was trying to figure out what had just happened. It was a very jarring experience. And as I realized what had just taken place, relief doesn't cut it. It doesn't even begin to enter into an accurate description of what I felt. Immense relief isn't a big enough word. I was flooded with this sensation.

Christopher Wark (19:16.814)
And that really struck me because I really believe that the actions I had just taken were an attempt to end my life. But that relief that I felt, see that's only possible if there is something about myself and my life that I loved enough. Something about myself and my life that was meaningful enough that even though my life was not going to be better today, it was going to be very painful, if not even more painful, I was still relieved to be a part of all of this.

And I will say this with complete certainty, no matter what context you want to put it into, suicide is never someone wanting to end their life. It is always someone wanting to end their pain. You take any person in any context and you ask them, if I could save your life right now, would you take it? They absolutely would. If I could change your life for the better, would you take it? The problem is they don't believe that it's possible.

They've never seen evidence of it. And believe me, we've tried. We've tried everything. There is nothing more arduous and difficult and effortful than a person who is in pain making it through a day. We don't believe that savior is possible. And all we want to do is not feel like this anymore. So that's what we're trying to end. We're trying to end that pain. And I picked up the phone.

and I immediately called my parents and asked for help. And they helped me check into a rehab facility about two weeks later. Within the first three days, I got diagnosed with type two diabetes. I had an A1C of 12. So to put that into perspective, a healthy A1C is below 5 .7%. Pre -diabetic is 5 .7 to 6 .4%. Anything above 6 .4 is type two diabetic. I was a 12 % diabetic. It was very ...

advanced type 2 diabetes. My cholesterol was over 300. My blood pressure was 210 over 120 and my resting heart rate was 125. I was a mess. And I was sitting in this doctor's office and he was saying, hey, listen, this is your life. You are diabetic, period, end of story. You have heart disease, period, end of story. Get comfortable with that. Here are the medications you have to take. There is no getting off of these medications.

Christopher Wark (21:42.03)
If you work really hard, you might be able to reduce some of them, but you will always be sick. You're likely always going to be overweight. An individual at your weight, the success rate for people like you is 1%. Not much you can do here. But for the love of God, just stop using drugs. If you can just stop using drugs, your life will get better. I'm sitting here and I look at the time I did not have any authority to believe differently, but it rubbed me the wrong way. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

I know what my life feels like when I don't use. That's why I use. And you're telling me that just by not using my life gets better? It didn't make any sense. I looked into, I started to get really curious. Is this story about addiction being a disease legitimate? And I came across some incredible thought leaders like Dr. Gabor Mate, British journalist named Johann Hari, wrote a phenomenal book called Lost Connections.

I gave an incredible Ted talk, everything we know about addiction is wrong. And they painted a very, very different opportunity for me. And I came to the belief that what I needed to do was essentially reverse engineer aliveness. I wanted to become the architect of a life that felt so safe, so secure, so hopeful, such an exciting place to want to be a part of, that use would no longer be necessary.

If I could do that, that's success. There's lots of ways to abstain from use that don't make your life better. For example, sugary processed foods, they actually subdue withdrawal symptoms. Is that a good idea though? I don't think so, but it is effective. Just because it's effective at symptom management doesn't mean it's actually curative. So I got radically fanatical about designing an environment that would encourage the response that I wanted.

I moved into a sober living facility after 37 days of rehab. And I took it upon myself to start living that plant -based lifestyle that I'd heard about from Rick. And I love telling this part of the story. I walk up to the house manager. The way it works is you go to the house manager and you say, hey, listen, these are the foods I went from the grocery store. They would send the driver out to go get it. And they come back and they stock the house. I was there with like 12 other guys. So I walked up to the house manager whose last name is actually Hamburger. And I tell him, hey,

Christopher Wark (24:07.918)
I need you to get me oats. I need dark leafy greens. I need potatoes. I need rice. I need beans. Can you do that?" And he said to me, Adam, this is what you want to do? We're going to support you. I woke up that next day, incredibly inspired. I was going to do this thing. I was really going to do this well. And so I walked into the pantry, opened it up, and right next to the oatmeal, what I asked for, they put a box of fruity pebbles, which...

is in my opinion the best tasting cereal of all time. And all of a sudden I got furious. I disagree, man. It's okay. It's okay. We can disagree. I'm more of a Lucky Charms connoisseur. Lucky Charms is great too. We're talking about Jucky cereal. But I got furious. I got so angry I threw a towel at someone and like ran out of the Silver Living House and the assistant manager had to run after me and like calm me down and bring me back inside.

And he had a really honest conversation with me. He goes, what is happening? And I said to him, you know, look, I'm trying to lose weight here. I'm trying to make healthy decisions. There's all this junk food. I shouldn't have to deal with this bullshit. And he said, what are you talking about? You're an adult, right? Why can't you deal with that? But that question, the way he phrased it, why can't you deal with it? That got me curious. Why, if I knew what to do?

Why would I still want to do something that I also knew would lead me in the wrong direction? Why was that choice so attractive to me? Why would that response make sense given all the knowledge and understanding that I had been given? Why would I still feel compelled to make a decision in opposition to my goals? That's when I went back and I read the book, The Pleasure Trap by Doug Lyle, which explains that we actually have a psychological and motivational architecture.

that is always trying to figure out how to get the most for the least. Because for the 99 % of the human evolutionary story, we live in an environment of scarcity, competition, and danger. Where in order to be successful, you had to have a psychology that was always trying to get as much as we can for as little effort in as little time.

Christopher Wark (26:20.43)
Only within the last 200 years, it's been an incredible shift in the caloric environment to where now there are, there's no such thing as, for the most people, and a lot of people, there's no such thing as scarcity. There's also huge amounts of convenience. And there's also far more calories per bite in foods that have ever existed in human history. And this motivational architecture, this kind of guidance system that's helping us figure out what to do has no understanding that this shift has occurred.

And it is still operating under the assumption that we're in an environment of scarcity that is appropriate and representative of our natural history and our natural behavior. And so we're being fooled into believing where we're actually thinking and feeling like that choice, that fruity pebble, that's got to be the right choice. We have a biological mechanism that should be compelled to make that choice. As soon as I understood this, I had all this shame lifted from my shoulders. See, I thought I threw a fit.

because I was not disciplined human. I thought I was weak, I thought I had no willpower. But what was actually taking place was the right appropriate response, both biologically and psychology, to a stimulus that is too intense that I had habituated to over time. And what I needed to do was essentially be willing to be comfortable being uncomfortable for a certain amount of time. The rest of the book describes how we can actually reset our neurotrans... Sorry, our dopamine receptors.

we can actually restore dopamine sensitivity. Now, this is not an overnight journey. In fact, it's about a four month journey. However, that's not a linear path. 80 % of that journey occurs in the first two weeks. So essentially, if I'm willing to craft a very specific, appropriate, and accurate caloric environment that looks representative of my natural history and natural behaviors, that doesn't include artificial sweeteners, added sugars, added oils,

from getting just the right amount of calories per bite, my dopamine receptors would regain sensitivity. And on day 15, that response to that food is going to feel very different. And I got really motivated to find out what that was going to feel like. Let me interrupt you right here, because this is really important. And I know you've touched on this, but for folks that I just want to put a finer point on it, food is medication. People use food.

Christopher Wark (28:42.446)
to self -medicate, even if they're not doing drugs. There are a lot of people that use food as medication because exactly what you said, because food triggers dopamine. Dopamine makes you feel good. It not only makes you feel good, it makes you feel biologically successful. Okay. Even, yeah. An even more attractive quality of dopamine, right? And so as...

You know, when you eat processed food, fast food and junk food, you get a big hit of dopamine and those foods become addictive. I mean, obviously they taste good, but it's not just the taste. It's the actual biochemistry, this dopamine response in the brain. And so this is why 40 % of Americans or over 40 % of Americans are obese and over 70 % are overweight because we have, like you said, an abundance of food.

Yeah. An unlimited supply of food. And most of it is cheap enough, you know, the fast food and junk food that people can overeat. And it's very high dense, very calorie dense, nutritionally deficient in many ways in terms of micronutrients. And yeah, that leads to this vicious cycle of weight gain and health decline. Yeah. And you'll notice, you'll ask somebody, if you were to ask me when I was 350 pounds, when did this start?

When did the point happen where you really started rapidly gaining weight over time? I go, I don't know. I feel like I just woke up like this. I don't know when this really happened. And so what that means, if you were to look at the, from a subjective point of view, throughout the course of those food decisions, if you were to ask me what was going on, I go, I don't know. I don't know why I keep making this decision, but it feels really, really right. It feels like I'm being very biologically successful when I do this.

And I get a sense I'm going in the wrong direction, but I don't know why, but I really think this is the right thing to do. I'll give you an example. If you were to go outside and you were to leave your porch light on, what you'll notice at night is that there are moths and they're attracted to the porch light. And the reason for this is because they actually use stars, celestial objects as navigation. But when the brightest light in the sky is now your porch light,

Christopher Wark (31:02.156)
It fools their motivational system and what's going to happen is they're going to hit it. They're going to flutter down. They're going to do that over and over and over again. And then eventually they're going to die. But if we were to actually have a conversation with this moth and say, why did you do that? They go, I don't know. It just, it, it felt like the right thing to do. They were self -destructive every single time, all the while thinking and feeling that they were doing the exact right thing.

That is exactly what is happening with the caloric environment. We have introduced a stimulus that is so outside the bounds of what we are designed by nature to understand and make appropriate decisions for both short -term, intermediate and long -term courses of action. And as a result of this imbalance based on the supernormal stimulus, we are going to be confused and misled. And that is not because you're weak. It's not because you don't have willpower. It is because every instinct in you is designed to seek out something that looks...

that beautiful. That is really important and that is really necessary to understand. Now, for some people when their life doesn't feel like it's a safe, secure and hopeful place to be, that porch light is going to look like the most beautiful thing they've ever seen in their life. But for everyone in the world, it will always look like an attractive thing to go check out. That's really important to understand. You are not going to will yourself away from those choices unless you intentionally design your own environment that is representative of how your body

is designed to figure out what's the right move to make. Yeah. Yeah. And food, food obviously is producing this pleasure and that pleasure, uh, people want pleasure, they desire pleasure. And, uh, and something that I talk about a lot, which I'm so glad, this is awesome. I love everything you've said. When you understand that food is medication and that you may be using food as medication, uh, what makes it difficult?

And your story illustrates this perfectly. What I think a lot of people struggle with, let's just say, is when they try to get off an unhealthy diet, and they try to get away from these hyper stimulatory pleasure foods, they don't realize that it was medication for them. Right? They just think, oh, I need to lose weight. So I need to stop eating the junk food and the fast food.

Christopher Wark (33:25.9)
And they try to replace it with something else, something healthier or another weight loss strategy, usually some junkie weight loss, you know, food program or something, or a crash diet. But what happens is ultimately people go back to that medication because they haven't solved the root cause of their pain. Exactly. Right. And so it's like, if you don't, this is the big light bulb. If you don't get to the root cause of your pain, you're going to be constantly seeking medication for the pain. Yep.

It's really important to understand that as a result for the majority of people in Western cultures who live in a caloric environment that looks like the United States, they've actually to some degree, some at a more intense degree than others, they've habituated to supernormal stimulus, where any time you introduce a supernormal stimulus, a stimulus that is, that elicits a response that's outside the bounds of what is appropriate, your receptors are going to defend themselves against that intense stimulus. And what's going to happen is they're going to dull the receptivity.

So if you are continually eating foods that are hyper -processed, high concentrations of calories, what's going to happen is your dopamine receptors are going to defend themselves against the stimulus, they're going to dull the receptivity. So now in order to feel an appropriate amount of pleasure to indicate that you're doing something well, you now have to eat foods that are super rich. And after doing that long enough, you're going to end up in a result that most people do, which is, oh my gosh, I'm sick. I need to do something here.

And I heard this guy, Chris work, he talks about this diet. I'm going to go do this thing. I'm inspired by him. I'm inspired to try this. What happens is they go to whole natural food and these are foods that have far less calories per bite. But when you've habituated to super normal foods, that bite of food is going to feel wrong. It's going to feel like a very unsuccessful thing to do. And you're going to go, this doesn't, I don't like this. I'm not getting any pleasure.

I'm not getting any pleasure from this broccoli. And that's actually likely very accurate. Yeah. But like I mentioned, if you're just willing to live in that environment for two weeks, you're going to recover 80 % of your dopamine receptivity and all of a sudden foods are going to start to feel like the right thing to do. These whole natural foods are going to feel appropriate to you. That's a journey that not a lot of people actually are willing to make, but oh my goodness, if you can just draw a line in the sand and say to yourself, you know what, for nothing or no one am I stepping over this line for the next two weeks.

Christopher Wark (35:49.516)
because that's what's required of me and my life is worth it. I want to figure out, cause right now I've got nowhere else to go but down. What do I have to lose here? Let me just live here, do this thing. And at the end of two weeks, I can make another decision, but you have to commit to two weeks minimum. That's required of you. Absolutely. Yes. And I experienced the same thing. The first week was difficult. You know, I wasn't enjoying, I was eating a raw food diet.

After my cancer diagnosis, I wasn't enjoying it, but I believed it was helpful and I hung in there. And yeah, around the two week Mark, I really felt like I hit my stride. Yeah. Right. Got in the groove. And the other thing we should mention too, is that your taste buds change. Yeah. So in, you know, the, the blunting effect that happens with dopamine also happens to your taste buds. So you have to eat foods that's super sugary and super salty.

to enjoy it. And so when you eat, you know, whole foods from the earth, fruits and vegetables, right? They're not nearly as sweet as the stuff you're used to. So they don't, they don't taste as good in the beginning, but your taste buds change in two weeks too. So not only does food taste better, but then you get that dopamine, uh, appropriate dopamine response from it. Yeah. You know, it's, it's remarkable. I designed a very simple, very repeatable and enjoyable enough diet for me to follow. It was basically oatmeal every morning with fruit.

rice and bean bowl every day with fruit on the side and a potato and bean bowl dinner with fruit on the side. I ate those same meals every single day for the better part of five months. And as a result of doing that, by that five month mark, I had completely reversed my diabetes, my high cholesterol, my high blood pressure and my erectile dysfunction. So let's talk about that. Did you ever do a calorie count, calorie calculator on your daily calorie intake eating that way?

You know, it's interesting, I didn't. However, I can recognize that I was at that time, I hadn't adjusted to the volume requirement of a lower calorie diet. So I was still eating like your typical portions. And so I was likely just finding myself in an appropriate calorie deficit, but I wasn't tracking at the time. I was also quite busy. I would go to...

Christopher Wark (38:09.708)
what's called an intensive outpatient therapy program. So I was in therapy for five, six hours a day. And so there was very little time for me to go snack. I ate breakfast, I ate lunch at the same time and I ate dinner at the same time. And when I got home, I tried not to sit around. I got to the sober house. I went for walks on the beach, two, three miles a day, not strenuous, just wanted to be in movement. And so I found ways to not be in an environment that would be attractive to just eating because I was bored.

Yeah, that's just that wasn't conducive to my success. I needed to, my wife calls me up and says I have border collie energy. I need a ball to go get. I so I decided that I was going to have these markers. I was going to walk two to three miles a day. I was going to walk at these hours. I was going to eat at these times. And that made it very safe for me. I knew what, when, and how I was going to do everything. And then it was easy and repeatable to do it. Well, structure and this should, we should mention it. Yeah.

Structuring your life creates security. Absolutely. It creates a feeling of security and safety when you implement structure and routine into your life. When your life is just sort of chaos and it's haphazard and every day is different and you know, then you have this increasing sense of unease, right? And unhappiness. And so that I understand completely how that played into feeling, feeling better about yourself and about.

Because when you put structure into your life, like people in my program, like we have a very specific diet and lifestyle like structure that we encourage people to follow. And it's like, when they do it, they get their power back, right? Yes. They feel empowered and they feel a sense of control over their life. And you really can't even quantify, like there's no way to measure. You really can't. What those feelings are, but they're real. You have to make it easy to do the healing thing.

And structure is a part of that ease. One of my friends, she's a researcher named Tara Kemp. I'm not sure if you know Tara. I don't. She has a phenomenal way of describing discipline. So I think most people grow up with the belief that discipline means to be corrected, right? To have a correction added or to be, you know, kind of punished or whatever. But the root word of discipline is disciple.

Christopher Wark (40:33.484)
And the definition of a disciple is a loving devotee. If you are disciplined in what you do and how you do it, what you eat and how you eat, how you move and what you move, what that means is you've decided to become lovingly devoted to those acts in service of caretaking for something that means the world to you. We, I don't ever view myself as, since the day I adopted a plant exclusive diet, I don't think I've spent a day avoiding meat, eggs and dairy.

I have been incredibly lovingly devoted to a way of serving myself that is in service of being able to wake up into a body that feels safe, exciting, and hopeful. And a knowledge that five, 10, 15, 20, 30 years from now feels equally safe, exciting, and hopeful. That's a breeding ground for self -esteem and resilience. By 10 months, I lost 150 pounds.

And within one year, I was not only off of all my chronic disease medications and had my disease reversed, I'd also gotten off of all of my psych meds, all my antidepressants, my mood stabilizers, my sleeping medications, my anxiety medications, and my ADHD medications. I checked into treatment, the sickest, most disconnected, most hopeless about life that I'd ever been. And I left one year later, the healthiest, most connected, most excited about life that I'd ever been. And

I really kind of, one of my heroes, Dan Buettner, has a phenomenal quote. He says, if you want to be successful with your health and your happiness, you have to make it easy to do the healing thing. And what I take that statement to be is that you have to decide what it is that's going to serve you and your goals. And then you have to make your environment look exactly like it. If you don't make your environment look like your goals,

You have to spend every minute of your day out competing in an environment that is set up against you. That's just going to be a shitty way of making through your day. You have to be the architect of an environment, both calorically, physically, and socially. You might have to decide, hey, the people that I was really close with before, I don't have to remove them from my life, but I have to spend a little bit less time with them, and I need to make friends whose lifestyle looks enough like mine that when I'm around them, their actions encourage my actions, and my actions encourage theirs.

Christopher Wark (42:56.62)
just by being around them, I feel supported, inspired, and encouraged to continue doing what I'm doing. I find that to be very, very valuable. I lucked into becoming best friends with a guy named Robbie Barbaro when I was in LA. In 2015, I did an article for Forks Over Knives, and he was still working for Forks Over Knives at the time, and said that I was living in Santa Monica at the time, he was living in Venice. So this dude, I didn't even know at the time that you could DM on Instagram.

And I had gotten a note from someone saying like, Hey, there's this guy named Robbie. He heard that you worked out here. He's been trying to reach you. And I look on, I had like 20 DMS from him and I went over and met him and I got introduced to a whole group of people who were passionately, enthusiastically, and excitedly living the life I was living. And I grabbed ahold of it. I said, this is the environment I need. I think that the result of my, you know, experience in recovery.

I'll have 11 years in October. It inspired me to get very curious. Is there actually any connection between the foods that we eat and the response that we have in recovery? And I came to find out there had never been a single controlled trial investigating the effects of any dietary pattern on addiction recovery and mental health outcomes. I was like, that sucks. And I spent the better part of a year just really pissed.

that I couldn't validate my experience. And then one day I just woke up and said, I'm going to do it. So I went back to school, I studied nutrition, started working in clinical settings, started being mentored by amazing people. And in 2018, I finally got the opportunity to start running what's called the Infinite Study, which is the very first controlled trial investigating the effects of a nutrient dense dietary pattern on addiction recovery and mental health outcomes in treatment facilities. We published it last year.

Amazingly, we got featured in Forbes in Psychology today. And what we found out is there actually is a connection there. How big of a connection and mechanisms at play, we're not sure yet, but what we notice is that there is an increased treatment. There's an increased effective treatment for individuals in recovery when their diet is mostly or exclusively plants. We can go a little bit further on that. It also requires you to get a certain amount of fiber.

Christopher Wark (45:23.02)
and a certain amount of that fiber needs to come from a diverse amount of sources. In fact, when we look at the highest performing groups compared to the lowest performing groups in the study, there was a 5X difference in fiber intake between the two groups. Fiber is a really important factor here. We don't know what mechanism is actually occurring. We're witnessing a dietary pattern and its effects on outcomes. We haven't really gotten into the biochemistry of mechanisms, but mechanisms are fun, but I'm an outcome -focused person. We can...

dive into the biochemistry of mechanisms all day long, but if those mechanisms don't result to outcomes, it's like who cares? I was so it's like I don't need to know how a car works, I just need to know is he gonna get me where I wanna go. Exactly, yeah, I just need it to start and stop. So we published the first manuscript, we have three more coming out, it was also a microbiome study, so we're looking at the impact of that microbiome and its result, and its connection or association between the outcomes.

And then we have qualitative, which are the stories of the individuals. How did it feel? Why did it feel that way? What do you think is going on? I think, you know, humans are storied creatures, which is why we'll argue data all day long, but we are very much motivated and inspired by story. And so when you have data in combination with a qualitative story of people's experience, that's a very powerful thing. So I'm really passionate about publishing this qualitative thing. Man.

what great research you're doing. And a minute ago when you said, you know, we don't know why exactly, you know, you're trying to kind of flesh out everything that's happening, why it's helpful. It just kind of reminds me of something that I've said for years, which is that a raw food diet or just a whole food plant based diet, I jokingly call it the gateway drug to radical life change. There you go.

And what I've observed is, is psychologically is when people adopt a whole food plant based diet or a raw food diet and they get it going, right. They adopt it a couple of weeks go by a month, go out, you know, and they've got it dialed in. It really unlocks this potential that they didn't know they had. Right. And so, and this is what it did for me. Right. So I was the first observation was in my own life.

Christopher Wark (47:38.412)
is I realized, wait a second, okay, I've totally radically changed my diet in a way that I never thought I could or imagined. What else can I do? Exactly. Yes. I had that same feeling. All of a sudden, all the things that I put on this list of limitations for myself, I now had to start considering as total bullshit. And once you scratch one thing off that list, every other thing you put on that list, you have to now equally consider nonsense to you.

And that means that you have the rest of your life to explore unconsidered potential. And that's a really exciting thing. Oh, I'm really excited to figure out what else I might be capable of that I never gave myself permission to believe I was capable of doing. That is such a profound thing. And there's actually a lot of science behind this in evolutionary psychology. We actually call what's occurring, escaping the ego trap. And so the ego trap first...

Let's actually accurately define what your ego is. And there's like, you know, there's the Freudian, Jungian definitions of ego. But really what we're dealing with is self -esteem. And so I want everyone who's listening to start thinking of their self -esteem as an internal audience. And that internal audience is made up of the people in your life that you know, watching you and responding to you as if they were...

witnessing you do what you do. Okay, so if we're to take the average person in Western culture who eats a pretty darn unhealthy diet and they're experiencing the effects of that unhealthy diet and they look outside their window, what they're gonna notice is probably the majority of the people in their life are also pretty darn unhealthy. And they've tried to figure it out and they can't. So what they're doing is like, well, no one's got this solved.

No one has figured this out. And then you see a few other people who've actually been able to figure it out and you go, well, you know, but they're the lucky ones. They're the ones who are, they have some kind of leverage. There's something about their genetics. There's something about their metabolism that makes it easy for them. It's actually not taking them effort. There's no effort involved there. And so if I were to exude the extraordinary amount of effort to do what they did, well, they wouldn't even consider that worthy of applause because to them,

Christopher Wark (50:02.092)
That's nothing, it doesn't require any energy for them. That's an ego trap. Once you get someone to commit to a whole food plant -based or raw food diet or high fiber diet, however you want to classify it, and they do it long enough, they start to experience the results of it, what's going to start happening eventually, somebody is going to say to them, hey, what are you doing and how did you do that? And those words, what are you doing and how did you do that?

What is now happening is the world around you is giving you a signal that you may have figured out something that most people would love to figure out. That raises your self -esteem because what it's doing is saying you now have value to share within a community of shared respect that is incredibly important to everyone. Now you have a place of value in the world around you. That one moment when you get those words, what are you doing and how did you do that?

It changes your entire life because two, three, four months ago, you were the same person saying, I don't know how they did that. And now you're the person being asked, how did you do that? And it just seems like, oh, it was just three months ago. I was part of the, I'll never figure this out crowd. And now in three months, I've not only figured it out, I might actually be able to guide someone towards it. That is incredibly an incredibly profound and empowering experience to recognize that you've actually figured out something quite extraordinary here.

You figured out how to do the right thing in an environment designed to help you do the wrong thing. That is an unbelievable thing to, to, to feel. And once you feel it, you're hooked because now there's meaning behind what you've done. Now you have a meaningful connection to what you've done and how you've done it because of its value. It not only offers you, but could offer those that mean the world to you. That's a really powerful thing. You've described my experience. Exactly. Yeah. That's the experience of most of us.

Yeah. And, and many people in my community, right. And the funny thing is, is like in one of my books, beat cancer daily, I talk about, um, this idea of plan on helping people in the future. Right. Yeah. Don't just focus on getting well, focus on getting well so that you can help others. Yep. And, and of course there's a season for that. It's not immediate. You got to get well first. Right. Like don't try to evangelize when you're still sick and tell everybody, you know, how they could be healthier.

Christopher Wark (52:28.236)
You've got to do the work. But when you do the work and you change your life for the better, people notice and people who are looking for help, they'll find you. Right? And that is an incredible, it's incredibly rewarding, fulfilling for people to come to you and genuinely ask for help. And then you be able to serve them and help them and then see them reap the rewards and the benefits of doing the work.

Right. That you did like it wasn't your advice, right? No, it was the work that they did. And that's why I have, you know, I have, uh, I just recoil at this, uh, idea of luck, you know, being a factor, right? Being a factor in someone's life, being lucky or unlucky. And I've certainly been, been accused of being lucky, right? I survived because I was lucky and, uh, and it's.

I don't take offense at it, but it isn't a very sort of offensive and rude thing to say to somebody not knowing how much work and discipline and dedication they put into changing their life. It also creates some kind of unrealistic standard that the universe has chosen some over others, right? Which is, you know, not an accurate statement. Yeah. Well, the idea of luck just plays into victimhood, right? Yeah.

It plays into victimhood. Like if you, if things aren't going well in your life, then you're unlucky and you're a victim. Right. Uh, if things are going well in your life, then, oh, you're lucky. And that's just that. And, and so people we've been, we've been bombarded with this really false idea or a sort of belief system related to fate and luck.

And, uh, and it's, it paralyzes people because especially in medicine, right? Like what your doctor said to you, you'll be a diabetic for the rest of your life. You'll have heart disease, cardiovascular disease. You're going to be obese till you die. You know, whatever. Like that is victimhood, right? He basically said, you're a victim. Nothing you can do to help yourself. Like you just, you can take these drugs and that'll help you get through the day. And that that's the best we can do for you. And that's the most you should ever hope for. And to me, that's criminal medical.

Christopher Wark (54:45.938)
negligence. It's you know, I always look back at that experience being one of the most motivating days of my life because I'll say this, I have an F you mentality towards towards people who set limits on me. I'm like, Oh, great. I'll be back in a month and prove you wrong. I love it. Be right back. Stay right the same. I had the same. I had that energy. Watch me. You know, I mean, there's a lot of people who, you know, I work with or who hear my story, they go, Well, you know, you were 30. So that's like, right, because

That's a standard you need to set for yourself in order to not try. That's okay, but let's not make that a reality here because that's not an accuracy. Yeah, I was 30 when this happened. Of course it was. Does that mean that maybe my response to this effort may have been a little bit faster than someone who's in their seventies? Sure. That doesn't mean that the results aren't possible. And so we create these limiting beliefs that remove us from the effort that is seemingly overwhelming at first. And we don't even take a step forward.

You know, looking back, when I tell the story, it really does kind of play out in a way where it seems like I just started and I never tripped, I never fell. And it's like, it's nonsense. There were so many days when I wanted to give up and that's fine. You are not required to like every minute of this journey, right? That is not a requirement for success. What you are required to do is tell yourself whether I feel like it or not.

I'm going to do this. And one of my favorite quotes about discipline actually comes from Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson says, discipline is sometimes doing what you hate to do, but doing it as if you love it. And I think that those are those moments where it actually feels like you hate this right now. In this one moment, you hate it. You got to do it as if you don't. You got to do it as if you love it. That's what's required of you. If you really want the results, that's what's required of you. You may not be able to do it alone. You might have to ask for support. That's fine.

In fact, I'll tell you this, I know for a fact, mental illness, addiction, they thrive in isolation. You will get your butt whooped trying to do this thing alone. They don't stand a chance against community. If you can find a group of individuals who will support you when it's hard and when it's easy, you have a much better chance of doing this thing well. I know that, you know, I never, when I started on day one, I had no...

Christopher Wark (57:13.554)
Idea my life would ever feel this good. I was hoping it best for life to be tolerable Where I could tolerate my day without using drugs where there'd be sometimes where I had some pleasurable moments here or there But just gosh just don't make it depressive anymore. Just let me feel like that. This is at least tolerable I had no idea life would feel this exciting and this meaningful and for those people who are out there who are struggling with substance use disorder or with you know, I

mental illness like depression or anxiety. Number one, I want you to know you're not crazy. Attics aren't criminals. They're humans in pain. Depressed, anxious people, they're not sick. They are humans in pain. And suicidal people are not crazy. They are humans in pain. And maybe if as a culture, we could stop trying to define people by what they struggle with, we might actually be able to start listening.

to what they need. They are human beings, as Johan Hari says, human beings who are depressed and anxious, they're not machines with broken parts. They're human beings with unmet needs. We need to listen to their needs instead of trying to solve their problems for them. If you have someone who you know who's struggling with addiction, the best thing you can do is call them and say, I love you. And I will love you whether you're using or you're not. I don't know how to solve this.

And I don't know if I even need to help to be the one to solve this. However, if you need me, I will be here for you and we can find someone who can help you take care of this or move you forward. More than anything, people who struggle with severe mental illness, with severe addiction problems, more than solutions to our problem, we just want to be reminded that we've not been forgotten by the world. We want to be reminded that there is a group of people out there.

who have been saving a place for us amongst them and are been waiting for us to return and they are never gonna give that spot up. No matter how long it takes, that spot is always theirs. If we can be reminded of that moment, if we can be reminded of that, it will soften the world. You have to be willing to sit with someone who their life has become too heavy. You have to give them words of affection that they can't give to themselves because they don't know how to do that anymore.

Christopher Wark (59:37.9)
You need to remind people that they matter to you. That is the most important thing you can do. Even if you are a professional in the psychology world or the addiction recovery world, if they're your friend or your family, you are not their therapist. You have to be their friend or family first and help them find someone else. That's good, man. Really good advice. Man, I just love everything you've said. It's so important, powerful, deep stuff.

Thank you. And, uh, I'm, I had a feeling this was going to be a good interview and now I know it was a good interview, even better than I expected. Um, and I just love how thoughtful you are, how, how much time you've obviously spent not only interest on introspection, thinking about who you were and what you believed in your flaws and your fears and your failures and, you know, and not just.

sort of shrugging your shoulders and saying, I was a drug addict, right? Like you actually understand why you painted such an easy to understand picture and a timeline of your life and how, you know, events led you into patterns of behavior that made sense at the time. A good point is we have a very specific question that we ask people who struggle with substance use disorder. And that question sounds like this. Why won't you stop?

That's the typical question that comes to mind if you're witnessing someone struggle. That's a shitty question to ask. A much more valuable and appropriate question sounds like this. Why does your use make so much sense to you? Why for you is it such an important part of how you make it through your day? If we answer that question, we know exactly which direction to go to help this person. Not so that they never use, but so that their use becomes less necessary.

That should be the goal of recovery. It should be the deliberate and intentional reconnection to a life that feels so meaningful, feels so safe and secure that their need to use is almost diminished completely. There will always be attraction to it. It's a supernormal stimulus. It should be attractive. They're designed to be attractive, but your life should equally be attractive. Your life should be another reason to say, you know what, I'd rather be here.

Christopher Wark (01:01:59.66)
You got to solve the pain problem. Yeah. Got to solve the pain problem. Exactly. Yep. Solve the pain problem. And, uh, and that all of a sudden the need to medicate the pain, to menace us, right? That's the path. It's like, and for me, you know, dealing with cancer, I, you know, I, I wasn't addicted to medications. I wasn't drinking. I wasn't doing anything that was overtly self -destructive.

I was certainly eating tons of fast food, processed food and junk food, right? That was, I could definitely say that was a stimulus and a drug for me. But that journey and that process forced me to do the same kind of introspection that you did because I realized that when you're carrying a burden of pain, right? Whether it's bitterness and unforgiveness, jealousy, anger,

Uh, insecurities, guilt, shame, like when you're carrying all of these negative emotions and, and false beliefs about yourself throughout your day and throughout your life, uh, you're in a constant state of stress and that state of stress suppresses your immune system. Yeah. And so the lesson in the cancer community is obviously we want to break the bad habits and get on a super healthy diet and start exercising and taking care of ourselves. But the, but the mental, emotional and spiritual part of it is.

Hey, you got to like really sit down and think through your life and figure out who has hurt you. Who do you need to forgive? You need to forgive yourself and for what things, right? And like that work takes time. You can't, you can, I say this all the time, you can change your diet today, right? You can exercise, start exercising today. And those are big levers that you can pull with, you know, incredible consequence.

positive consequences and you can get that ball rolling and get this healing momentum going. But then you got to work through the other stuff, right? Got to work through. And that's how you get lasting success and lasting results is when you again, work through your fears, your flaws, your failures, accept yourself for who you are and forgive people who've hurt you and start catching. And I know you had to do this too, like,

Christopher Wark (01:04:21.132)
You have to interrupt your thoughts, right? When you start thinking negatively and critically and starting getting down on yourself, you have to catch yourself in those moments and be like, I'm not going to think this way. Right. I've got to stop thinking like this. I need to choose to think positively. What, what, what can I replace this negative self -talk with? And for me, it was gratitude. I've got a lot of things in my life that, um, to be unhappy about. Okay. I can, I could rattle them off, but.

let me just shift my focus to what's good. What's good in my life. And I certainly had good things. And, uh, and so every time I would get sucked into negativity, I would just catch myself and, and shift my focus and start counting my blessings. Right. And for you, I mean, when you were at rock bottom, boy, you know, I know it was a short list of things that you probably felt were good in your life. Right. Yeah. Um, but in fact, I may not have even been able to identify them other than like,

You know, my parents who love you, my twin brother, my parents and my sister, you know, it's like, well, there's five, there's four reasons right there. Yeah. It's like, just start there and just build from there. Right. Exactly. And, uh, but all that to say, you know, um, I just love your message. I'm so proud of you, man. It's like you've accomplished so much and, and what an incredible, what an incredible transformation in 10 months people.

I know. Yeah. 10 months, like less than a year, losing 150 pounds, getting off of all these medications, reversing diabetes and heart disease. And I'm sure your cholesterol went way down. Your blood pressure went way down. Oh yeah. Erectile dysfunction, uh, came back, came back online. Like this is what the body can do. Right? Adam is not a, uh, he's not a superhero and neither am I. He has.

I'm just going to say it. Don't take it personally. He has no special skills. I don't. I am not uniquely gifted. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No special skills between the two of us. The only thing, and what, but what we have in common is we just had this determination to change our lives for the better and, um, and the discipline to stick with the program, right? To stick with.

Christopher Wark (01:06:37.452)
Whole foods, nourishing our body, rejecting the temptation of junk food and fast food and processed food and alcohol and tobacco and drugs and whatever. And, um, and then over time, as you do that day by day, by day, you see improvements. And like, I just, I'm excited because I know you're going to inspire a lot of people who, who aren't nearly as in dire straits as you were. Right. Cause, and I know you've seen this. It's like when people are like, Whoa, this guy was 150 pounds and got off medications and.

like heal themselves in less than a year. Geez, what's my excuse? Well. Yeah. The thing is like, there's nothing genetically special about me. I'm not uniquely gifted at, you know, fitness or, you know, I've, I'm the worst chef in the world. Ask my wife. Um, but, uh, I decided to become very self -aware. I became very self -aware and then I took that self -awareness and I focused it on resources.

So self -awareness and resourcefulness are a requirement for change. Knowing what to do and how to do it, if that worked, every diet book in the world will be a success. There's something uniquely important about the personality that is looking at that information. And that personality has to be focused on, am I willing to be very self -aware? And then am I willing to look at the resources that are being presented with me?

to me and use them appropriately for my issues. If I'm aware that, look, if I was to sit inside near the kitchen, it's just not going to be fun because now I'm going to be doing is focused on, I'm not supposed to eat right now. I'm not supposed to eat right now. I'm not supposed to eat right now. That's a very frustrating thing. Instead of not eating, go be in movement. Go fill your time with meaningful connection. Go...

Put your feet in the sand at the beach, touch the ocean, feel the breeze on your face and wave at a dog that runs past you. Be in the world. The food's gonna be there. It's fine, it's fine. It's a willingness to say, I know where right now I'm able to be strong and where right now I don't do that well. And where those areas are where you can be aware, you have that self -awareness to say, this is where I ...

Christopher Wark (01:08:56.172)
Don't do very well instead of trying to avoid that thing, actively choose a healthy replacement for it. Don't focus on the negative. Hey, Clint Eastwood, dirty Harry. That's right. A man's got to know his own limitations. Right. Right. When you're aware of your own limitations, then you can hopefully, you know, again, catch yourself in those compromising situations and get out of them, right? Get off the couch, get out of your house, get away from the.

the fridge, right? Or whatever, like go for a walk or call up your friend or family. Like, yeah, you have to really, as you said, be resourceful. And I think the difference between success and failure is really the same difference between knowing and doing. Yes. Right. Yeah. And all have a lot of knowledge. And is a result of trial. Right? So I like this analogy, the 1969 Apollo mission to the moon.

So in 1969, humans took on one of the most extraordinary feats in human history, which is we took humans from Earth, we put them in a shuttle, we launched them into space, landed on the moon, and we let them go out and walk on the moon. That's a very intense, extraordinary effort. So we must have, one would think, we must have had this thing all figured out. We must have known exactly the right direction to go, we must have been on course for the majority of the time, otherwise we would have abandoned. Do you actually know what percentage of the flight time they were on course?

I don't. It's 2%. 2 % of the time they were actually on course to the moon. They spent 98 % of the time course correcting. And what that looks like if you were to just look at the data, a person who doesn't apply context would go, wow, spent 98 % of the time going the wrong way. Or you could look at what actually took place, which is they spent 98 % of the time figuring out how to safely get where they wanted to go. That is the journey of every single person on this.

You should not get up every single day with the intention of, this is only going to work if I get it right 100 % of the time. You should be excited to discover what doesn't work. As excited to find out what doesn't work as you are finding out what does work, because they're both valuable, they're both important. And so be excited about figuring this thing out. You likely only get to do this once in your life and it's an extraordinary thing to do. Be excited about it. Own it as something like, yeah, all right, I tried doing that and man, not doing that again.

Christopher Wark (01:11:20.14)
I'm glad I'm never gonna go that direction again. Be excited about it. Let yourself enjoy the moments in all of it, right? Not just when it's going well. In martial arts, I grew up doing martial arts and so big martial arts fanatic, we say, no one trains to win on their best day. They train to win on their worst.

That's good. I love the idea of course correction. That is it's, it's key, right? You have to constantly correct in course. The expression I use is a point your ship toward healthy Island. Yeah. Right. And so you're constantly getting knocked off course, right? It's like, but what's important is you got to write the ship, like just writing the ship and there will be wind and waves and life throws stuff at you.

But you can constantly, you know, you can continually bring yourself back, put yourself back on course. And that's what makes for an epic sailor's journey, man. Is, oh my gosh, you should have seen the storm we went through on the way to get here. That's right. That's right. And treat it like an adventure. Our message is the same, you know, your message and my message. It's the same message, right? Be enthusiastic. Don't look at it as like drudgery. Treat it like an adventure.

Don't beat yourself up when you mess up or make a mistake or something doesn't work. Don't get discouraged and depressed. It's just a learning opportunity, right? You just learn what didn't work and like keep on going. So man, so much good stuff in this interview. I've got a, I could talk to you for another hour easily. But I've got to wrap it up for the sake of time. But let's make sure that people know how to connect with you, where to find you, if they want to learn more from you and all that.

Yes, I have a website, adamsud .com, where you can actually watch previous interviews of mine. Actually, you can read the study that I published. You can contact me through the website. You can book me as a speaker. Or I do have a small list of private one -on -one concierge consulting, where I only take on a certain number because I really prefer to do the high touch method, where basically if you hire me as your coach, I'm on call to you Monday through Friday.

Christopher Wark (01:13:37.42)
And so what this means is I've set a limit of number of people I work with because I am dedicated to serving you to the best of my ability. Um, I have an Instagram plant -based addict. Um, and I have a Facebook page that I actually don't really update that much plant -based addict. So my main source of media is Instagram. That's great. And we will link to all of those resources, uh, in the show notes folks. So he will be easy to find and I hope you do.

follow him because he shares great content. And if you made it this far in the interview, you already realized what an exceptional person Adam is. And, uh, and he's exceptional not because he was born that way, not because he's lucky, but because he chose to radically change his life. Right. He, he chose every single day to change his life for the better and to stay on course. And guess what? What he did is something you can do.

And thank you for watching. Thanks for taking the time to do this interview, Adam. My pleasure, man. Please share this interview, folks. This is life changing, life saving information. People in your life need to know that healing is possible. Thanks for watching and I'll see you on the next one.